PHIL 241 - Social and Political Philosophy 1

Bill Wringe / Sandrine Berges

wringe@bilkent.edu.tr / berges@bilkent.edu.tr

Plato 4: Understanding Justice (2)

Reading:

Plato, Republic Books III and IV.

Focus Questions:

Read 414c-415e (pp91-2)

Summarise the main elements of Plato's 'noble lie'. Why does Plato think it needs to be told?

What does Plato tell us in the rest of book 3 about:

The role of the three classes in his ideal society?

How people are to be assigned to each class?

How they are to be educated?

Do you think there are any respects in which Plato's 'ideal society' resembles existing societies?

Do you think there any ways in which think Plato's ideal society would be an improvement on existing societies? Do you think there are any ways in which it would be worse?

Presentation/term paper question

Is justice in the individual the same thing as justice in the state?

OR:

Why does Plato think that a state can be just even if not all of its citizens are just? Is he right to think so?

Classnotes:

You must read the text and attempt to answer the questions before the lecture. This will count as participation.

Answer the questions in note form and bring your answers to the class.

Some questions require you to interpret the text, i.e. read it closely and try to understand what the author is saying and how he is defending his claims.

Other questions require that you evaluate the text, i.e. ask yourself whether you agree with the author's thesis, whether his arguments are good ones, and give reasons for what you think. These questions are typed in italic.

1. Justice in the individual and the polis

Read 368c-d carefully

How does Socrates say justice in the individual is related to justice in the city? What conclusions does he draw about how we should approach the project of giving account of justice in the individual?

Does the view that Socrates puts forward strike you as plausible?

What arguments does Socrates use to defend his view? Can you think of any problems with them?

Can you think of any better arguments which could be used to defend the same view?

Now look at the discussion from 432b - 434d

On Plato's view, what feature of his ideal state makes it into a just one?

Does this strike you as a plausible view of what it is for a state to be just? Explain your answer

What does Socrates say in reply to Adeimantus worry that in the ideal state the guardians won't be very happy (419a)?

Is what he says convincing? Why/why not?

How might it be relevant to the discussion with Thrasymachus in Book 1

2. The Three Parts of the Soul and Individual Justice

Read 435e - 442d. (You will probably find these passages difficult to follow: do your best)

What parts of the soul does Socrates think we need to distinguish for his purposes? How are they related to the different groups in the city?

Explain in your own words how Socrates goes about explaining why the soul has different parts. On your understanding of the argument, are there any problems with it?

Does Socrates give us good reason for thinking the soul must have exactly three parts (rather than, say, two or five or fifteen.) Explain your answer

Now look at the definition of justice at 441d-e.

Explain in your own words what you think Socrates means when he says that 'each one of us in whom each part is doing its own and work will himself be just.'

Do you think this is a good answer to the question which Socrates, Cephaus and Polemarchus were discussing at the beginning of the Republic? Explain your answer

3. Meeting Thrasymachus' challenge.

At 441 d-e Socrates tells us what he thinks it is for a soul to be just. (He then goes on to explain his answer)

Try to explain Socrates view is in your own words (and as concisely as possible).

Why do you think that Socrates is so sure that this is an account of justice, rather than anything else?

Why does Socrates think that a person whose soul satisfies his definition of justice will be happy?

Is he right to think so? (For this question you should try to think about whether a soul which has what Socrates understands by justice will be happy, and not whether Socrates is right about what justice is)

4. Tying up the end the loose ends?

By the end of book 4, Socrates thinks he has shown to Glaucon and Adeimantus that a just person is bound to be happy.

Try to summarise the main points of his argument, as you understand it.

Say what you think the biggest TWO problems with it are and how Socrates might respond.

Do you think Socrates has succeeded in his task.